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	<title>Comments on: Mixed Member Proportional = Crap</title>
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	<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784</link>
	<description>Canadian Political Opinions - Current Events &#38; News</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Wilf Day</title>
		<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784#comment-5582</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilf Day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicopinion.net/provincial/mixed-member-proportional-ontario#comment-5582</guid>
		<description>On a minor point, you should re-read the Report. You say "If the electoral math cannot be worked out within the framework of a 129 member body, the legislature is within its rights - according to the MMP principal - to increase its own size for the duration of the term." This indeed happens in Germany and New Zealand, but not Scotland, and not Ontario. This "overhang" feature is one the CA decided to dispense with, in the interests of simplicity.

You are correct that, in other areas of the world where the MMP system is used, many parties simple run many of the same candidates at large as those who are running in local elections. However, you may not realize why these countries elect many more women than we do. Left parties tend to put every second candidate on the at-large slate as a woman, while conservative parties may make a woman every third name. Local ridings still tend to nominate "the strongest man" 75% of the time, but when a larger group nominates and ranks the at-large candidates (in New Zealand they do this in six regional conventions, then fold the six lists into one) they tend to nominate a balanced slate. If they run out of locally nominated women they might add a few "list-only" women, but usually that's not necessary, because only the top half or so of the list have any real chance, and they usually have enough local women candidates for the top half of the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a minor point, you should re-read the Report. You say &#8220;If the electoral math cannot be worked out within the framework of a 129 member body, the legislature is within its rights - according to the MMP principal - to increase its own size for the duration of the term.&#8221; This indeed happens in Germany and New Zealand, but not Scotland, and not Ontario. This &#8220;overhang&#8221; feature is one the CA decided to dispense with, in the interests of simplicity.</p>
<p>You are correct that, in other areas of the world where the MMP system is used, many parties simple run many of the same candidates at large as those who are running in local elections. However, you may not realize why these countries elect many more women than we do. Left parties tend to put every second candidate on the at-large slate as a woman, while conservative parties may make a woman every third name. Local ridings still tend to nominate &#8220;the strongest man&#8221; 75% of the time, but when a larger group nominates and ranks the at-large candidates (in New Zealand they do this in six regional conventions, then fold the six lists into one) they tend to nominate a balanced slate. If they run out of locally nominated women they might add a few &#8220;list-only&#8221; women, but usually that&#8217;s not necessary, because only the top half or so of the list have any real chance, and they usually have enough local women candidates for the top half of the list.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784#comment-5581</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicopinion.net/provincial/mixed-member-proportional-ontario#comment-5581</guid>
		<description>We have not had coalitions in Canada because the voting system is not conducive to coalition. There are no incentives for cooperation. We have a winner-take-all system that generates cut-throat politics and makes power the only issue.

We currently have 25% women in the Ontario Legislature, 21% in Ottawa. It's a national disgrace! FPTP stifles diversity of all sorts. Every country (except Cuba) that has at least 30% women in its national parliament has a proportional voting system.

It's not about putting a woman ahead of a more qualified man--it's about removing the barriers to election for qualified women and minorities.

MMP is about changing the strucutre of incentives to generate different behaviour from our politicians and political parties.

Why would you suggest that "the power of the individual will be lost" under MMP? MMP is a voting system designed by voters to be good for voters. It will give voters the power to hold political parties accountable, by giving every voter a party vote that actually helps to elect somebody, every time.

Don't fall for the hype that list MPPs are not elected, or that MMP will give more power to party bosses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have not had coalitions in Canada because the voting system is not conducive to coalition. There are no incentives for cooperation. We have a winner-take-all system that generates cut-throat politics and makes power the only issue.</p>
<p>We currently have 25% women in the Ontario Legislature, 21% in Ottawa. It&#8217;s a national disgrace! FPTP stifles diversity of all sorts. Every country (except Cuba) that has at least 30% women in its national parliament has a proportional voting system.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not about putting a woman ahead of a more qualified man&#8211;it&#8217;s about removing the barriers to election for qualified women and minorities.</p>
<p>MMP is about changing the strucutre of incentives to generate different behaviour from our politicians and political parties.</p>
<p>Why would you suggest that &#8220;the power of the individual will be lost&#8221; under MMP? MMP is a voting system designed by voters to be good for voters. It will give voters the power to hold political parties accountable, by giving every voter a party vote that actually helps to elect somebody, every time.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t fall for the hype that list MPPs are not elected, or that MMP will give more power to party bosses.</p>
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		<title>By: MadHacktress</title>
		<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784#comment-5580</link>
		<dc:creator>MadHacktress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicopinion.net/provincial/mixed-member-proportional-ontario#comment-5580</guid>
		<description>Actually, the Accord was not a coalition.  If you check the history books you will find that David Peterson is listed at the Premier of Ontario, for the Liberal party; not for the Liberal-NDP party.  I wouldn't consider the government of that day to be a coalition in actuality, it was, in truth, a government-in-agreement.

I would be interested in seeing any historical sources that do claim that the Accord was a coalition because I have seen umpteen sources that state that Ontario has never had one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the Accord was not a coalition.  If you check the history books you will find that David Peterson is listed at the Premier of Ontario, for the Liberal party; not for the Liberal-NDP party.  I wouldn&#8217;t consider the government of that day to be a coalition in actuality, it was, in truth, a government-in-agreement.</p>
<p>I would be interested in seeing any historical sources that do claim that the Accord was a coalition because I have seen umpteen sources that state that Ontario has never had one.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Jonkman</title>
		<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784#comment-5579</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Jonkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicopinion.net/provincial/mixed-member-proportional-ontario#comment-5579</guid>
		<description>There &lt;em&gt;has&lt;/em&gt; been at least one notable coalition in the Ontario Legislature:  In 1985 PCs won a minority of the seats (52), but power was held by a coalition of the Liberals with 48 seats and the NDP with 25 seats.  The 73 seat "Accord" was responsible for the introduction of pay equity legislation and outlawing extra billing for doctor's services.

--Bob.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There <em>has</em> been at least one notable coalition in the Ontario Legislature:  In 1985 PCs won a minority of the seats (52), but power was held by a coalition of the Liberals with 48 seats and the NDP with 25 seats.  The 73 seat &#8220;Accord&#8221; was responsible for the introduction of pay equity legislation and outlawing extra billing for doctor&#8217;s services.</p>
<p>&#8211;Bob.</p>
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		<title>By: MadHacktress</title>
		<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784#comment-5578</link>
		<dc:creator>MadHacktress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicopinion.net/provincial/mixed-member-proportional-ontario#comment-5578</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the comment.  I have read a great, great deal about the MMP system, both before this referendum came up and since.  I have read about Germany, the U.K., New Zealand and others who use the system, I have read the entire report, word by word, that was put out by CAER, I have read, now, the opinions of these two bloggers.

I still stand firm in my opinions and feelings with regard to the MMP system.  I admitted that the MMP system looks good on paper, but I feel that the reality of Ontario politics will not bear out the affirmative opinions of many individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the comment.  I have read a great, great deal about the MMP system, both before this referendum came up and since.  I have read about Germany, the U.K., New Zealand and others who use the system, I have read the entire report, word by word, that was put out by CAER, I have read, now, the opinions of these two bloggers.</p>
<p>I still stand firm in my opinions and feelings with regard to the MMP system.  I admitted that the MMP system looks good on paper, but I feel that the reality of Ontario politics will not bear out the affirmative opinions of many individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Tribe</title>
		<link>http://www.politicopinion.net/opinion/mixed-member-proportional-ontario-784#comment-5577</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Tribe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicopinion.net/provincial/mixed-member-proportional-ontario#comment-5577</guid>
		<description>I think you're mistaken in your views on the topic. &lt;a href="http://skinnydips.blogspot.com/2007/09/twelve-reasons-to-vote-for-mmp.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; are 12 reasons to vote for MMP, and &lt;a href="http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-lies-about-mmp.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; are 10 Misconceptions of MMP.. and I think you should read both before condemning the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re mistaken in your views on the topic. <a href="http://skinnydips.blogspot.com/2007/09/twelve-reasons-to-vote-for-mmp.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a> are 12 reasons to vote for MMP, and <a href="http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-lies-about-mmp.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> are 10 Misconceptions of MMP.. and I think you should read both before condemning the system.</p>
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